Saturday, July 28, 2007

Chat Log of the Privacy Session

Thanks to Vint whose version was better than the one I had.

Miranda Tibbett: First, Lillie, I think it would be helpful to get
some sense of what the dangers are, from your perspective. Many people
simply don't know what can happen.
Emmo Etzel: The kids aren't too happy about it sometimes. Did you see
the NY Times article/blog about that?
Lillie Yifu: What I would like to start with is a story about someone I know
Lillie Yifu: she met someone
Lillie Yifu: chattered a bit about what she studied
JLP Raymaker: how do i IM someone if they aren't my friend?
Lillie Yifu: the person she was talking with warned her that he could
find her on google.
Miranda Tibbett: JLP, click on the AV, then click IM.
Lillie Yifu: We are all, out there, far more than we might think. As
soon as people talk about privacy, it usually means that they don't
have any
Lillie Yifu: and when they talk about security, it usually means they
are insecure.
Lillie Yifu: The wonderful thing about our digital world is that we
can meet people from all over the world
Lillie Yifu: and we can do things that were impossible for ordinary
people a few years ago.
Lillie Yifu: The problem is that relationships are dangerous
Lillie Yifu: pregancy is probably the most dangerous thing that human
beings are expected to do.
Aniela Roffo: we've lost complete audio from Chicago right? I'm not
fluteplayer Kidd: and there's 6 billion of them - plenty of morons to
ignore I'm sorry to say
Rosenel Falken: evidently
Miranda Tibbett: Lillie, what do you do to protect yourself?
Lillie Yifu: So when we go to relationships online, realize that we
are managing danger
Emmo Etzel: Agreed. Someone that my husband knows wrote in his profile
how Intelligent he is. DH said that he must feel insecure. I agree. I
think that the same goes for security.
Lillie Yifu: that is inherent in love, romantic attachment, and intimacy
Miranda Tibbett: And can you give us an example of "sketchy" things
that have happened to you, situations where you might have felt at risk?
Miranda Tibbett: Also, we'd like to talk a bit about how you draw the
line between feeling like you know someone and being safe in SL and
then meeting them in RL.
Lillie Yifu: It doesn't take much. I wrote a review on my blog about
the three largest escort clubs. I think I had 4 inbound links, and 25
readers a day.
Lillie Yifu: But one of the club owners took offense, he sent his
managers after me, his radio station after me, and bombarded me with
abusive IMs
Emmo Etzel: I'm more worried about usenet-type things. That's the only
place I have felt that weirdos might track me down.
Lillie Yifu: knowing that no matter how much he broke the ToS, nothing
was going to happen to him because he was important
QueenWench Tammas: wow
Lillie Yifu: So it isn't the "random wierdo" that you should be worried about
Lillie Yifu: it is your employer
Emmo Etzel: True.
Lillie Yifu: or other people who have real money at stake
Miranda Tibbett: Please keep the questions coming, folks!
Lillie Yifu: Let me put forward three rules that work for internet
relationship finding everywhere,
Rosenel Falken: So do we give up and leave? What's up?
Emmo Etzel: The one time I had problems at a sporting event, it was
road rage from a fan of the same team, nota sore loser from the
opposing team (court dte 8/10)
Lillie Yifu: first, don't be in a hurry.
Kuanyin Yiyuan: I've been asked by a blog friend to step into a battle
with another blogger, but I am hesitant to get involved because I
would be the only woman.
Lillie Yifu: second, the person you need to meet first, is yourself.
Emmo Etzel: I think that we should have our own panel. Any volunteers?
Lillie Yifu: and third, trust in the community of people.
Lillie Yifu: Almost everything bad that can happen to you on the
internet, will happen to you because you are too much in a hurry.
Aniela Roffo: and in real life yifu
Lillie Yifu: In a hurry to find a husband, a boyfriend, a quick job,
or a cheap television set.
Emmo Etzel: Internet rage? Like road rage?
Lillie Yifu: Most internet rage passes. I think it is the product of
furstrated people.
Miranda Tibbett: Interesting point.
Miranda Tibbett: But hard to apply in the "instant gratification"
setting of online sexual encounters.
Lillie Yifu: but what is more dangerous on the internet, is exposing
yourself to unneeded danger
Lillie Yifu: The itnernet is very tempting to do things fast
Lillie Yifu: that is precisely why
Lillie Yifu: you should slow down
Lillie Yifu: first find yourself, then find a community of people who
are going to be your community of choice.
Lillie Yifu: Then look for a relationship.
Miranda Tibbett: Another question.
Miranda Tibbett: The panelists in Chicago were talking largely from
the perspective of being known journalists.
Miranda Tibbett: Wait, let's back up....
Miranda Tibbett: a few questions from the audience.
Miranda Tibbett: What do you mean by "finding yourself"?
Robyn Fritch: yes
Lillie Yifu let me try shouting
Miranda Tibbett okay, we'll shout now.
Lillie Yifu many people, men and women, define themselves
byothers. Their job, their relationship, their money, their family.
Lillie Yifu But the wonderful thing about sl, is that you can
discover yourself, what you want, what you fantasize about but don't
want to do irl, and what you want to keep private.
Miranda Tibbett: Have you ever met someone from sl in rl?
Lillie Yifu: You can build an art gallery, or a club, or a store,or a
forest garden. And by finding what is within you, creatively,
eroticly, and emotionally,
Lillie Yifu you have a much better chance of meeting the
people who will fulfill you.
Lillie Yifu You can build an art gallery, or a club, or a
store,or a forest garden. And by finding what is within you,
creatively, eroticly, and emotionally,
Lillie Yifu You can't, irl, say to people "I want to be used
as a sex toy!" or "I want to own a sex slave." You can here, and
explore that part of yourself, and see how it fits into all of you.
Lillie Yifu and here is the important part, integrate it into
your rl. You can have sex in a closet, but not a life, and people live
bottled up too much. Not really knowing what they want, or just
imagine they might want.
Miranda Tibbett: About your blog. Do you heavily need to moderate the
comments, erasing the ones 'over the top'. Or absolutely no problems
with that?
QueenWench Tammas is Offline
Lillie Yifu Theonly time I had problems was when there was
money involved. Otherwise, I have the dearest community of commenters
anyone could want.
Lillie Yifu I lvoe them all.
Lillie Yifu is the blog by the way.
Miranda Tibbett: One thing that we all seem to want to talk about is
what it's like -- and what the risks are -- of taking sl friendships
or relationships in rl.
Queen Tureaud: and LEts open this one up to the audience
Queen Tureaud: how many have met someone from SL in RL?
Queen Tureaud: or WILL?
Miranda Tibbett: I personally had one terrific experience with it, and
one slightly uncomfortable experience.
Grace McDunnough raises her hand
Vint Falken raises her hand too
Queen Tureaud: good, bad, scary????
Lillie Yifu The risks are the same as with any relationship
where you meet someone at a distance. You know certain things about
them that no one else knows, and they you. But also you don't know
certainthings about them.
Aph Lightworker: Hi
Miranda Tibbett: Well, in one case, I met someone in rl who I was very
close to in sl.
Vint Falken: good / confusing
GoSpeed Racer: I know several within a 30 minute drive, but have yet
to meet them
Miranda Tibbett: And to meet him in rl was very affirming -- affirming
of our connection and that he is a wonderful man.
Lillie Yifu In the lifestyle community, there is a practice of
having "safe calls," people who you promise to call at cretain times
when you go to meet someone new.
Miranda Tibbett: It is not a sexual relationship, however.
Vint Falken: miranda, that does sound like a good relationship (be it sexual,
or not ;))
Lillie Yifu And when meeting someoen new, it is really a good
idea to know other people who know them online. That is why I say
trust in the community. It is easy for one person to fool one other
person, it is much harder for one person to fool a whole community of
Miranda Tibbett: And in another case, a lonely soul sort of glombed on
to me, and recently while meeting for coffee hinted that he liked me
and oh, by the way, was I into "good pain."
Lillie Yifu gggiles.
Miranda Tibbett: And for the record, no, I am not into "good pain."
Vint Falken: Miranda: you did not poor your hot coffee on his lap, did you?
Queen Tureaud: lol
Miranda Tibbett: I ignored it.
CaptainGenuine Kidd: ouch
Queen Tureaud: So are we stupid if we meet someone in RL?
Miranda Tibbett: I don't think so, no.
Queen Tureaud: putting ourselves in danger?
Miranda Tibbett: But I think, back to Lillie's point, you need to give
it time.
Queen Tureaud: trust them
Miranda Tibbett: Time will show if they're trustworthy or not.
Queen Tureaud: or being baited
Miranda Tibbett: I think you have to go with your gut. And, yes, the
community can help.
Lillie Yifu it is about managing the risks that are always
there. For any blind date, or chance meeting. It is just that on the
internet, you have different things you have exposed to the other
person, and need to be more careful about filling in the gaps.
Vint Falken: Lillie: I don't know about the community part in SL here. There
are people of which identity is unknown to all in their communities.
WE have some like that in the SL bloggers group
Miranda Tibbett: If someone gives one of your friends the eebie
jeebies, and you trust their judgment, listen to that.
Grace McDunnough is writing a new song called Pass the sugar, and I'm
into good pain ...
Vint Falken: we all have the same 'scratches' of RL information, but if that
checks out, nobody of the whole group knows
Queen Tureaud EVEryon APH has JOINED US-aka Regina Lynn from WIRED
Aph Lightworker: I think the idea of having a whole community know
where and who you are is great
Grace McDunnough: Hey Aph
Aph Lightworker: (sorry i'm late, had a schedule conflict; not
interrupting, just going up to sit in)
Miranda Tibbett: Hi, Aph, welcome.
CaptainGenuine Kidd: My wife was commenting about my Avatar last
night. "Who is that good looking young guy without love handles and
five oclock shadow?
Lillie Yifu The people who I have found most trustworthy, are
the ones who have a committment to other people in sl. RL information
is less useful, than knowin gthat the person values other people
around them in sl, and treats those other peopel with respect.
CaptainGenuine Kidd: It is easy to be someone you are not here
Grace McDunnough: it's not that easy Captain
Vint Falken: welcome. and if you're that concerned about meeting someone, just
pick a public place, and as lillii said, don't rush things?
Miranda Tibbett: Aph, we're talking about how and when to trust
someone enough to meet them in rl.
Queen Tureaud Aph since you just joined....gintro yourself real quick
Aph Lightworker: Captian ... physically, yes. but on an ongoing basis?
whoeer you are in here is part of who you are.
Grace McDunnough agrees with Aph
Lillie Yifu But Captain, we are also people we are not irl. No
one is completely themselves. We are different parts of ourselves
here, yes, but still ourselves.
Phoenixxa Homewood: LOL then there's folks like me who are shy of just
typing to someone
Vint Falken: captaingenuine, if you state that it's easy to be someone you're
not here, how old are you? (sl age)
Aph Lightworker: Quick Intro: I'm REgina Lynn, I write the Sex Drive
column at, about sexuality & technology.
Queen Tureaud: :)
CaptainGenuine Kidd: That's probably true with me because of the self
deprecating humor but from a man's POV, it would be easier to live a lie
Aph Lightworker: Lillie -- so true. I'm not the same "face" at my "day
job" clients that I can be as a columnist
Vint Falken: Aph, sounds like an intersting combo. =d
Aph Lightworker: both are equally ture/real parts of me
Aph Lightworker: I think, talking about safety, that one has to be
sensible, online or off. and that online lovers or friends are
actually more aware of safety checks, than offline
Miranda Tibbett: Have we exhausted this topic?
Miranda Tibbett: Surely someone else has another experience to contribute?
Vint Falken: i was wondering
Aph Lightworker: Miranda ... no, the New York Times will be writing
about it in about 8 months as "news"
Aph Lightworker: /smiles
Vint Falken: Veyron wrote a great piece a while ago
Queen Tureaud: LOL
Grace McDunnough: / as in bad news
Vint Falken: about keeping two totally seperate identities
Miranda Tibbett: Any horror stories?
Vint Falken: SL and non -sl
Vint Falken: going up to seperate google accounts, etc etc using openapps. if
anybody is interested, i'll quickly look up the blogpost
Lillie Yifu: One thing I run into all the time in my owkr as an.... er
... Real time Interactive Adult Entertainment Consultant
Aph Lightworker: Good luck keeping it separate. I tried for a while to
separate my "day job" self, to protect those clients from knowing that
- gasp - iwrite about sex
Queen Tureaud: gasp!
Lillie Yifu One thing I run into all the time in my owkr as
an.... er ... Real time Interactive Adult Entertainment Consultant
Aph Lightworker: but online, it all traces back together, at some point.
Lillie Yifu is infidelity.
Miranda Tibbett: I've had that problem, too, Aph.
Miranda Tibbett: I've not gotten hired for jobs because gasp -- some
of my best clips have been about very off-beat, sexual topics.
Vint Falken: I think the difference is, in SL , pseudonyms are accepted as
real names. Even if you write for one of it biggest newspapers. ;)
Miranda Tibbett: But Lillie, let's hear from you more about this.
Aph Lightworker: Good point re: names. I think the Reuters bylines
should have full journalist names, not just First Reuters
Miranda Tibbett: I know Lillie was interested in the differences
between the experiences of the professional journalist versus the
regular person.
Aph Lightworker: if using online community for personal, relationship,
entertainment, that's one thing. but journalism - needs to beup front.
Aph Lightworker: Infidelity - I get that question a lot. "Is cybersex
or SL sex cheating"
Vint Falken: aph, and what's your idea about that?
Aph Lightworker: Vint ... people who are drawn to online sex
desperately hope it's not cheating ... people who aren't, and who
worry about their partners, desperately hope it is cheating ...
ultimately, it's something each person and each relatinship has to
Aph Lightworker: but i will say this: the door is open and isn't going
to be closed again. so i think we have to rbe open to thinking about
how we figure out relationships and fidelity and play going forward
Phoenixxa Homewood: i agree Aph - it's to do with intent and
understanding between partners & there's no one answer for everyone
Aph Lightworker: Is' relationships - doesn't fit nicely in a little box
Vint Falken: they say using soft drugs gets you closer to hard drugs. is it
the same way with cybersex/cybercheating (let's call it that way):
does 'cheating' on the internet would make the step IRL more easy?
Miranda Tibbett: Interesting question.
Aph Lightworker: Vint, i'm sure it does, because the emotional
connection gets strong, and you stay up all night, and you get tired ...
Miranda Tibbett: Is there some sort of "gateway" progression to cyber sex?
Aph Lightworker: ... and meeting in person starts to be more real,
less fantasy
Lillie Yifu: Many of us aren't paid, or aren't paid much, to be in sl.
For us, the risks of online hararssment aren't balanced by the rewards
of selling more books. Quite the reverse. When you go online here, ir
is vry wise not to reveal too much about your personal life, without
thinking about it. There is no check on the front door to sl, anyone
can enter, and anyone can be read your profile. A good rule is don't
say antying in public about yourself, that you would not want printed
on the front page of a major newspaper.
Aph Lightworker: and one has to do some hard work and step back and
ask: what am i doing. is something missing in my relationship offline
that this online person fills.
Aph Lightworker: Lillie - YES!
Aph Lightworker: so true
Miranda Tibbett: Aph, did you find you had to make a clear decision at
some point about those transparency issues?
Lillie Yifu But let me stress the other side. This is a world
rich in possibility. You don't have to go to the sl equivalent of the
bar crawl to meet people. You can make your own space. One thing that
has amazed me over and overagain, i s how many women have come to sl,
and without the anxiety of age, weight, looks or other social
pressures, they flower and do really fabulous things. This is a place
where everyone can be their fabulous slef, and meet someone who
responds to the person you have always been, but never had a chance to
Miranda Tibbett: and let's hear once more from Aph and wrap up.
Aph Lightworker: Miranda ... yes. I don't advertise the connections,
but i'm not in secret anymore. right now, i'm getting enough day job
clients that aren't wigged out by the column.
Vint Falken: As in-world. The ToS is supposed to protect us. You can't copy
past IM conversations to someone else without prior notice, Lillie may
not IM to a friend that she knows I'm Belgian or other personal
information. Yet I never seen that implement. But it's some sort of
security. That risk drops when we look at the rest of the internet.
What about posting IM convo's without consent on blogs? Or snapshots
that are supposed to be privat? (Camera hoovering inside a bedroom is
Aph Lightworker: i 'came out' as Aph, in my column, last month, after
a year of not
Aph Lightworker: and Lllie that's exactly how i see it too - always
opportunities, always risks, you have to take responsibility for
anna Begonia: ciao
Queen Tureaud: and on that note...thanks everyeone!!!
Grace McDunnough: Thanks panelists!
Phoenixxa Homewood: /c;
Vint Falken: / claps
Queen Tureaud Join us in the exhibit area for some LIVE music!!!
Vint Falken: / claps
dinee Ghia: *claps*
Aph Lightworker: thanks everyone!
Lillie Yifu Thanks queen for giving us this wonderchul chance,
and thanks to the audience for asking such great and interesting
Rosenel Falken Thanks you all


  1. You have an interesting POV. I like how you view virtual life and the way it is integrated into real life. I think you have a natural way of showing that even though it lets you be someone you are not that person is still a fragment of your true self. I like your blog a whole lot, and your perspective is great to read. Keep up the great blog and I hope to meet you in SL some time for a chat.

    -Joshie Shan

  2. Your summaries are always top-notch. Thanks for keeping us apprised. I’m reading every word here.camara chat